Curse

BeowulfKamdas · Jul 27, 2005, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Is it really worth it to pour 16 points into your weapon of choice. So far I only put 12 because the benefits of past 12 significantly decrease where as the cost goes up drastically

asdar · Jul 27, 2005, 12:16 PM // 12:16

I think in PvP it can be worth it.

In a lot of builds an individual character will have a combination of moves that result in enough damage to kill one or even some the other team. An example would be Air spikers. I don't think everyone that's spiking should do this but if the only class of spell he's using is air then it's worth it.

I don't know any other examples that are as clear though. I've monkeyed with the numbers some but it didn't look to me like 16 was ever worth it in the ones I tried.

If you want to test the numbers use some free time and create a new PvP character and dump in the stats and sit in the pre-tombs area and move your stats around looking at the numbers.

thaumaturge · Jul 27, 2005, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Actually above level 12 the benefits drop significantly for a weapon, here is the damage based on level. So it's probably not worth the cost unless you don't need any other points in other attributes, or you have a uber weapon with req 13 or similar.

Level 8 - 70%
Level 10 - 84%
Level 12 - 100%
Level 14 - 107%
Level 16 - 115%

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

Excer · Jul 27, 2005, 12:29 PM // 12:29

depending on ur build, 16 may be well worth it. examples other than air spikers are IW mesmers and minion masters.

Zrave · Jul 27, 2005, 12:42 PM // 12:42

I always run 16 weapon attribute on warriors because it provides three benefits:

1) 15% more damage in regular attacks. 15% more damage!

2) Attack skills don't drop off in effectiveness like regular attacks do, so you get a bigger bonus.

3) Perceived increase in critical hits

Plus, its not like you want your warriors to be doing much else other than attacking. With rangers however, I think that 12 marksmanship is best, especially since most of their damage usually comes from preparations or other buffs which are from a third attribute line.

Tellani Artini · Jul 27, 2005, 01:11 PM // 13:11

You could go with 16 weapon and 12 or so strength, or you could go with 13 weapon, 12 strength, and 11 smiting/elemental and run strength of honor, judge's insight, or conjure element. Depends on whether you want to rely on magical buffs to juice up every hit a little or pump the weapon attribute to juice up your attack skills a lot.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 27, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

You could go with 16 weapon and 12 or so strength, or you could go with 13 weapon, 12 strength, and 11 smiting/elemental and run strength of honor, judge's insight, or conjure element. Depends on whether you want to rely on magical buffs to juice up every hit a little or pump the weapon attribute to juice up your attack skills a lot.

Well done. This also stops a character from becoming a one-trick pony where it's easy to just shut down using only 1-2 skills.

JackOften · Jul 27, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

An important factor when talking about damage modifiers is how big the area being modified actually is - since your physical attacks come with two components : Basedamage and skilldamage. If you're hitting an armored target for example (lets be stupid and say an AL 100 Armor of Earth Ele), then your base physical damage is negligible - 15 or less on a sword or axe on average. Modding 15 by 15% nets you 16.5 - or a 1-2 damage boost. Ironically thats a failure even versus Strength of Honor (of all the horrible skills possible) - on the other hand vs ALs of 60 we're at least talking 4-8 damage, which is at least not completely retarded (you might break +10 on a Hammer, w00t).

Still, base damage modding isn't as powerful as normally presumed - and pumping to 16 is mostly worthwhile for the skills in a branch (which will be giving you another +2 per level ideally), and if you don't actually need the HP.

Rey Lentless · Jul 27, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I think it's important for warriors. The difference between a 12 and a 16 is rather significant. I don't think the difference between a 16 and 15 is real significant though, so boosting that last point probably isn't the best way to go. A simple 11 weapon/10 str/10 smiting is going to probably do better than a 12/12 depending on the build.

But look at the difference between a 16 and 12. For one, you're getting the 15% more damage. That's 15% all the time, and it's not just added to the 35% mod from customized and weapon mod, it increases the base damage on the weapon. You're also getting the 33% more damage from the attack skill bonus damage. So when you consider those two things, and throw in the armor penetration you'll get from the strength, that 15% and 33% can mean significant extra damage. The difference between doing a nice 100 final thrust, or a 140.

I think 16s are fine on a real specified build (as opposed to 15, not 12). Say a order spammer, that's going to be adding 4 damage per hit to his team for each additional point in blood. That's worth 20 attribute points. I think for damage dealers who really rely on one attribute, then you really may as well go for a 16.

Zeru · Jul 27, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I'm pretty sure that moving it from 12-16 improves your critical rate as well which is pretty important along with upping the skill damage as zrave said. It is definitely worth it for practically every profession; monk and necro may be the exceptions for some circumstances.

Scaphism · Jul 27, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

I think the key point here is asking what your warriors are designed to do, and what else they are spending attribute points on.

It wont always be a no brainer to put 16 into your weapon, but unless there's a compelling reason to do so, I don't see why you wouldn't.

A warrior is likely to have 4 or 5 attacks from his weapon line that all benefit from the higher attribute as well as base damage.

Most warriors also have one or two stances, usually sprint and something else.
Pack a rez signet on there and you have 1 free slot left.
Unless you absolutely need something from your secondary profession, I don't know why you need an attribute above 8 in your secondary.

Take a 12 10 8 setup and run with that, or 12 11 6 (with 5 leftover points).
If you really need an 11 10 10 setup, make sure you know why you need 10 or 11 in that third attribute.
4 attribute warrior builds are even trickier, but I'm not a fan of those- how much are you asking your warrior to do with his already-limited energy supply?

Meimei · Jul 27, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I have 16 ponts into hammer and 13 points into str because i want to kill a caster or a ranger from 100% of health before they can get up and i need the dmg to do it. but for sword i would say 16 points is a waste of points. It's all depend on what u want to do.

Scaphism · Jul 27, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I'm tempted to say a 16 in swords is less important than it is for hammers, but I wont.

It's true that swords get less benefit from a crit hit than hammers or axes, but they all benefit from a flat 15% damage increase, and they all benefit from their skills doing more damage.

Most of the hammer builds I've run use knockdowns with maybe one or two attacks with + damage.
I haven't played many sword warriors, but there are a lot more sword attacks (that I would use)with +damage than hammer attacks with +damage.

That still doesn't change the fundamental reasoning in going for 16 in your weapon attribute- if you don't need the points elsewhere, you should be running 16 in your weapon.

Iraqalypse Now · Jul 27, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I like 11/10/10 warrior builds quite a lot.... I've only really made two decent warrior builds that I use in the random arenas, and I am pretty sure being a warrior in the tombs is quite a bit different. The builds were a 11 axe / 10 str / 10 smiting using battle rage, and a 11 + 1 sword (or axe) / 10 + 2 (hat + minor) str / 10 + 3 tactics for "fear me" spam draining 4 energy. I need to get Echo to do more really fun things with fear me (echo For Great Justice, Beserker's Stance, or Fear Me)

A lot of why many players run 11/10/10 is because it gets 12 weapon mastery / 12 strength with only minor runes, which normally unlock just following normal, whereas getting 16 weapon mastery requires unlocking a superior, or 15 weapon mastery after unlocking a major. Those runes usually require farming of some sort, a large application of money, or quite a lot of faction to unlock. And if an 11/10/10 is of a similar strength to 12/10/8 or 12/12/3, then the extra effort isn't seemed justified for the average player.

Scaphism · Jul 27, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iraqalypse Now

And if an 11/10/10 is of a similar strength to 12/10/8 or 12/12/3, then the extra effort isn't seemed justified for the average player.

I think you're spot on about the average player not putting in the effort to unlock superiors.
However, the question is whether it's "worth it". That's a completely subjective definition, but if you go by the data, a 16 in your weapon (as opposed to a 12) gives you an advantage. It's up to the individual to judge if the "advantage" is worthwhile.

I'm convinced I can make up the -75 hitpoint loss from a superior rune by outplaying my opponents (and with a decent team behind me).
It's "worth it" to me because I've unlocked most superior runes already, but if my primary character was a warrior (it's not), I'd make it a goal to unlock Superior Weapon, Absorption, and Vigor runes as soon as possible (in addition to your important weapon mods).

Tuna · Jul 27, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I really like 12(+4)/9(+1)/9 because it lets you use a focus offhand from your secondary which can be quite helpful if you're running energy skills. But it really depends on your build and what you're trying to do with it.

Taks · Jul 27, 2005, 10:09 PM // 22:09

16 into a weapon attribute is very much worth it if you run a warrior in PvP. As a warrior you are on of the last targets so the -75 on your health isn't too much of a problem.

The Red Knight · Jul 27, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

16 damage axe = +42 dmg eviscerate

Ensign · Jul 27, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

You could go with 16 weapon and 12 or so strength, or you could go with 13 weapon, 12 strength, and 11 smiting/elemental and run strength of honor, judge's insight, or conjure element.

In situations where I want that high secondary class attribute I gravitate towards the 16 weapon, 10 secondary, 9 strength/tactics setup. Worst case scenario that's worth 7.5% more damage than the above listed setup, and is frequently worth much more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackOften

An important factor when talking about damage modifiers is how big the area being modified actually is

Sure. For the bonus from skills, the increase is pretty obvious as it's listed in the skill descriptions. For base weapon damage, you're looking at around +4 damage per hit (for swords) to +6 damage per hit (for hammers) with normal attacks, and substantially more with critical hits (on top of *more* critical hits).

Is that damage, plus the bonus to all of your attack skills, worth the price? In PvP it's a no-brainer, as the hit point loss is negligible and you're a class with attribute points to spare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

A simple 11 weapon/10 str/10 smiting is going to probably do better than a 12/12 depending on the build.

Sure, but the basis of comparison isn't 12/12, but 12/10/8. 16 Weapon, 9 Strength is going to outperform 15 Weapon, 11 Strength by a wide margin in the vast majority of cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

That's 15% all the time, and it's not just added to the 35% mod from customized and weapon mod, it increases the base damage on the weapon.

It's actually the +38% mod. The +15% weapon mod and +20% customization bonus affect each other. Same with the +15% (well, 14.87%) bonus from the high attribute. All told a 16 attribute, perfect customized weapon is going to deal +58.52% damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iraqalypse Now

A lot of why many players run 11/10/10 is because it gets 12 weapon mastery / 12 strength with only minor runes

It's a good tank setup for PvE. It's also a setup that lets your typical PvEr use a (sexy?) +strength or +tactics helm while still feeling that his equipment is optimized. -75 HP when your main goal in the party is to eat up aggro and stay alive? No thanks. Just take the 12/12, your favorite sexy helm, put 10 in an attribute you want to play with, and have fun.

Peace,
-CxE

Rey Lentless · Jul 29, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

It's actually the +38% mod. The +15% weapon mod and +20% customization bonus affect each other. Same with the +15% (well, 14.87%) bonus from the high attribute. All told a 16 attribute, perfect customized weapon is going to deal +58.52% damage.

You should change your guide concerning game mathematics then. I assumed from your information that the weapon attribute modified the base weapon damage (meaning it is a flat ~15% multiplying other modifiers), and that the customized 20% and 15% on the weapon are only additive.. going by your information. Small difference, but be cool if you changed that in your guide.

Quote:

Sure, but the basis of comparison isn't 12/12, but 12/10/8. 16 Weapon, 9 Strength is going to outperform 15 Weapon, 11 Strength by a wide margin in the vast majority of cases.

Depends on the build obviously. My builds usually use str skills, and focus on using attack skills as often as possible, so high str attributes are important to those builds. In most of my builds, I'd prefer the 2 extra str points over the 1 extra weapon. But I often times run 2 superiors on my warrior as well.